ICTY Court Records


  Q.   Now, just turning our attention to P62, which is an overhead of
12     Knin, and just take a second to orient yourself.  I mean, it is the same
13     map as you drew on previously in P547.  But if we can and with the
14     assistance of the usher, could you map for us, Colonel, the path that you
15     followed and I believe our colour is blue, isn’t it.  I believe we’re
16     using a blue marker.  Could you map for us the path that you took that
17     time between 1600 and 1800 on the 4th?
18        A.   That’s to go to the hospital?
19        Q.   I think you actually — didn’t you say you stopped at the RSK HQ,
20     dropped off General Forand and then went on to the hospital.
21        A.   Correct.  I cannot map the path, because I was inside the APC,
22     okay?  I wasn’t the guy in the cupola directing the driver where to go.
23     So was inside the vehicle.  But I remember some of the area where we did
24     stop.
25        Q.   So you can’t tell us based — were you down in the APC the entire
Page 5917
 1     time?
 2        A.   Yes.
 3        Q.   So what was on that road as you were travelling, you didn’t see?
 4        A.   I didn’t see it.  What I saw is when we were stopped and that’s
 5     when I got out of the APC.
 6        Q.   Now, when you went to the hospital, and we are looking at page 4
 7     of paragraph 4, and that would be the first paragraph — not the
 8     carry-over paragraph on 4, it would be the first full paragraph, you
 9     observe Serb soldiers in uniform, didn’t you?
10        A.   Injured, yes.
11        Q.   Injured.
12        A.   Well —
13        Q.   You concluded that they were Serb soldiers is the point.
14        A.   Yeah.  Because I believe that’s because they might be wearing
15     some fatigues, uniform.
16        Q.   Now, likewise, later on in the day when you saw people that were
17     dead on the street, you saw people that were in uniform and I think you
18     responded to Judge Orie that you concluded that they were soldiers as
19     well?
20        A.   Correct.
21        Q.   Now, you note in this — in your statement that, if I may, and
22     I’m just — that you note that it looked as if the hospital had been
23     damaged, looked as if one corner of the hospital had been hit by a shell,
24     it was damaged.
25             Was it?
Page 5918
 1        A.   From what I recall, yes.
 2        Q.   Did you ever learn any information from any other member of the
 3     UN that the — that UN — excuse me, that the hospital in Knin had been
 4     hit by a shell, anyone?
 5        A.   Not that I recall.
 6        Q.   Now, you note, and I’m just going through your statement, again,
 7     on page 4 and this is the second full paragraph:  “Driving through Knin
 8     on this mission, I saw a great deal of devastation.”
 9             Now, use P62 that is on the screen, sir, and tell us where you
10     saw this great devastation.
11             MR. KEHOE:  If we could use the assistance of the usher.
12        Q.   Now, let’s mark the first one A and the second one B, all right,
13     and C.
14        A.   [Marks].
15        Q.   Let’s start with A.  What were you doing in the area marked A?
16        A.   I believe we were trying to get civilian UN personnel and UN
17     police.
18        Q.   Who?
19        A.   I don’t remember the names.  Just one that I remember, it’s one
20     former Canadian — well, a RCMP, Norm Boucher, but I don’t remember
21     exactly where he lived, so …
22        Q.   So you don’t know if Mr. Boucher lived in the area marked as A?
23        A.   Or it could be B.
24        Q.   Or B.
25        A.   Or B.  It just — I don’t exactly remember.
Page 5919
 1        Q.   In relation to A do you know where the police station is?
 2        A.   No.
 3        Q.   Do you know where the Sanjak barracks is?
 4        A.   What is the Sanjak?  Is that what we refer to as the north
 5     barrack?
 6        Q.   North barracks — well, you can identify it.  Can you see where
 7     the north barracks is?  It’s got a tag on it.
 8        A.   Yes.
 9        Q.   Do you know where the Sanjak barracks is?
10        A.   No.
11        Q.   Who were you travelling with in the APC when you went to pick
12     these people up?
13        A.   There was lieutenant, Jordanian that was living the M-113.  I
14     don’t remember his name.  He is the one that had the street address and
15     the OT-64 was driven by Slovak or Czech soldiers that were following the
16     113.
17        Q.   So, Colonel, can you give us the name of anybody that was in
18     either of these APCs that you were travelling in?
19        A.   No.
20        Q.   Let’s turn our attention back to A.  Is that a location where you
21     saw dead soldiers in uniform or people in uniform along with others?
22        A.   I believe in A and B, in both.
23        Q.   So there were soldiers in both A and B when you observed this —
24     these people dead.  Is that right?
25        A.   I believe so.
Page 5920
 1        Q.   Are you aware of the military facilities that were located around
 2     B?
 3        A.   No.
 4        Q.   Now, let’s turn our attention to C.  Did you see dead soldiers
 5     there?
 6        A.   I cannot recall.
 7        Q.   Do you know the circumstances under which these people died?
 8        A.   I didn’t go and investigate why.  It was just getting out of the
 9     APC while some of the people were with me going to the building and I was
10     just looking around and making sure that we were safe and I didn’t go
11     close to them or investigate.
12        Q.   Suffice it so say, you have no knowledge as to the circumstances
13     under which any of these people died, be it people in uniform or not in
14     uniform, do you?
15        A.   No.
16        Q.   Let us talk about the military targets that you talked about in
17     both of your statement and direct examination.
18             MR. KEHOE:  I’m sorry.  Your Honour, I’ll offer into evidence
19     this — this chart that is on the screen with the blue writing on it.
20             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.
21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.
22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D515.
23             JUDGE ORIE:  D515 is admitted into evidence.